"When graffiti is decriminalized it is no longer "graffiti". It is just art on a wall - which can be cool but it's not graffiti....Illegal graffiti separates artists from the real writers, who risked it all time and time again to create it."
Subject: Graf Should stay Illegal (Hicks v. Politics) Date: 24 Oct 1995 20:56:14 -0400 From: fgdwb@aol.com (FG DWB) Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti If you seen this already sorry... I agree that graffiti should not even be mentioned in the same breath as any of those serious crimes, but I think you missed one very important point. When graffiti is decriminalized it is no longer "graffiti". It is just art on a wall - which can be cool but it's not graffiti. There has to be some vandalism and risk involved with graf. Just like those method paintings and the dude with the white dude with the afro on cable, anyone can be taught to make decent looking graffiti. But graffiti art, the styles and culture associated with it, were created by young street kids from NYC. Everything surrounding graf, from stealing paint, to making homemade markers, to bombing trains to getting chased by dts, dodging workbums these were all a part of growing up for many of us. If graffiti had been legal all along, it would never have developed. Illegal graffiti separates artists from the real writers, who risked it all time and time again to create it. I don't think new writers today understand how much it hurts to see graffiti becoming commercialized. It happened to rap, but that I could live with. But just like rap, graffiti is all about the kids and the neighborhoods who created it. Once popularized it becomes watered down. It loses everything that made it so great. Enough complaining... I guess there's no way to stop it. I just hope all new graffiti artists from all over the world who make money off it remember it's roots - and the people who made graffiti what it is. There's so many artists and bombers that are long forgotten that nobody talks about anymore. Some of the illest bombers and artists are dead or homeless now. A few like Futura, Seen and Dondi are capitalizing from graf - and they deserve to. but there's literally hundreds of other writers who contributed to graf who don't get any props nowadays. this goes out to them. when I have some time I'll write my tribute to the great ones. Artists and bombers from early 70's to early 80's like Clyde, Crash, Love67, Minone, All time undisputed king OE3, P13, BABY168, PEO inside kings like Stop, Lee3 and many others who helped make graf popular by running lines and droppin all city bombs for the first time. These are the writers who deserve props? and there's many more... Until then peaceout. FG DWB 1977-1986 Still get the itch sometimes....
"It is so easy to be right about how graf is so wrong."
Subject: Re: Hicks and Politics. (Warning:Long Post) Date: 23 Oct 95 18:05:53 GMT From: umandr18@cc.umanitoba.ca (Quin Aaron Andrew) Organization: The University of Manitoba Newsgroups: alt.graffiti Glad I could get you so worked up, Brett. Thanks for the response. You used my marker yet? )Most importantly...graf's a much easier target, and saying )your going up against it takes people's attention off of how )much money they have in their pocket, and how little the )government cares about the kid that wakes up starving every )morning. Yeah, as far as causes go, anti-graf is a good one for anyone who doesn't want the moral, ethical, religious, political conflict that goes along with something like anti-gun, anti-abortion, whatever. It is so easy to be right about how graf is so wrong. more later.DER.
"when it really comes down to it, graff is about Fame, it's that simple."
From: kev138@aol.com (KEV138) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti Subject: Re: graff Date: 30 Sep 1995 02:04:43 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Reply-To: kev138@aol.com (KEV138) ))its NOT about attitude...its about ART..graffiti ART...if ))your not in it for the art and enjoyment, then get the hell ))out...whats the point of being a graffiti artist when you ))give more time into the pointless ))attitude than the art))?? graff is about whatever you want it to be about... attitude, art, etc.. shit, i know kids who write just so they can get chicks.... . when it really comes down to it, graff is about Fame, it's that simple.. if you dont have fame, you arent shit.. kev
"illegal illegal illegal gots to be the real way... "
Subject: Re: Graf selling out Date: 31 Oct 1995 20:10:59 GMT From: miami-x@shadow.net (Car) Organization: Shadow Information Services Newsgroups: alt.graffiti In article (STR815078528@candyman.demon.co.uk), lima@candyman.demon.co.uk says... >In article (46r7qk$a98@mizar.usc.edu) bwebb@mizar.usc.edu "Brett" >writes: *To that dude that said how all of the old schoolers are >*so upset by how graf is becoming more commercialized: >*(wise reply snipped to save bandwidth) >Some of the best pieces I have seen have been done by former >'illegal' artists (usually in their 20s) who now produce pieces mainly >for small underground rave crews. >They aren't making stacks of money from it - they usually get paid >only enough to buy the paint, but they get a chance to do pieces without >the risk of getting busted (the prison time and fines increase as >someone gets older). > Alex >47P International - Reading, Berkshire, UK illegal illegal illegal gots to be the real way just remember graff started on trains not legal walls dont get me wrong ive done a FEW legals but no mater what age. you should allways keep on with the illegal shit boms fr8's illegal piecen whatever have you....peace and respect to all the REAL writers out there. car one msg krew miami represent
...if more and more legal shit is done, then those pussies who call ANY graffiti "vandalism" may eventually see the artistic side of graffiti.
Subject: Re: Graf selling out Date: 1 Nov 1995 21:05:29 GMT From: Satan (Meph666@hell.com) Organization: Washington University in St. Louis, MO USA To: miami-x@shadow.net Newsgroups: alt.graffiti ya gotta learn to repsect the new directions that graffiti is heading in. it's been growning and changing for the last 30-some-odd years or so and you can't let it stop. Just cause someone isn't gonna risk their ass to show their skills doesn't mean they're less of a writer. And if more and more legal shit is done, then those pussies who call ANY graffiti "vandalism" may eventually see the artistic side of graffiti. peace... goNe....U.phive.squad...
"Don't forget who took graf and put it in the galleries."
Subject: Graf selling out Date: 27 Oct 1995 11:19:00 -0700 From: bwebb@mizar.usc.edu (Brett) Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Newsgroups: alt.graffiti To that dude that said how all of the old schoolers are so upset by how graf is becoming more commercialized: Don't forget who took graf and put it in the galleries. Don't blame the new kids for putting graf on clothes. Don't think new jacks who don't care about their roots are making bank off of graf--the real money is being made by those saying their fighting the stuff, and by the privately owned prisons that all these new crimes we have on the books now are feeding, with our tax dollars. Don't forget those shitty companies that we keep supporting that use graf to sell their stuff (nike, converse, adidas, etc.) --brett
"represent the way it should be illegal."
Subject: Re: Old School Sellout? Yo, Brett. Date: 9 Nov 1995 21:28:05 GMT From: miami-x@shadow.net (Car) Organization: Shadow Information Services Newsgroups: alt.graffiti In article (47len9$8km@mizar.usc.edu), bwebb@mizar.usc.edu says... )In article (umandr18.815430572@mira) umandr18@cc.umanitoba.ca (Quin Aaron Andrew) writes: )) Not that I wouldn't sell my soul to Nike for $20 right now. )Just to let you know how I stand on this whole thing (which I don't )think any of you do)...the starving artist bullshit is just that. )I believe that artists should be rewarded for their work, not imprisoned-- )censorship sucks, too. ) )Do what you gotta do to survive. Just don't blame the newer kids for )surviving, when they weren't the ones that took graf to galleries )and all of that. ) )--brett ) Gallerys suck [expletive deleted] (wussy grafff)he car one msg krew...represent the way it should be illegal.
"They had been out bombing subway trains. Facing live rails, police raids and beef from other writers."
Subject: Re: Old School Sellout? Yo, Brett. Date: Thu, 09 Nov 1995 22:07:12 -0500 From: con203@graffiti.org (Con203) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti In article (47trp5$6p9@bud.shadow.net), miami-x@shadow.net (Car) wrote: )Gallerys suck [expletive deleted] (wussy grafff)he )car one msg krew...represent the way it should be illegal. Naw bro. The kids who did the galleries werent wusses. They had been out bombing subway trains. Facing live rails, police raids and beef from other writers. Going along with what you say, the only kids who should get props are mass tranist bombers in Europe and Australia. And if this means tha im not real, then [expletive deleted] it. ps. Dont tell me that freight bombing or burning is like subway writing cuz it aint. con.203
"Graffiti has always been undergroud and thats where it should stay"
Subject: Re: Old School Sellout? Yo, Brett. Date: 11 Nov 1995 03:26:55 GMT From: miami-x@shadow.net (cojak one) Organization: Shadow Information Services, Inc. Newsgroups: alt.graffiti Con203 (con203@graffiti.org) wrote: : In article (47trp5$6p9@bud.shadow.net), miami-x@shadow.net (Car) wrote: : )Gallerys suck [expletive deleted] (wussy grafff)he : )car one msg krew...represent the way it should be illegal. : Naw bro. The kids who did the galleries werent wusses. They had been out : bombing subway trains. Facing live rails, police raids and beef from other : writers. Going along with what you say, the only kids who should get props : are mass tranist bombers in Europe and Australia. And if this means that : im not real, then [expletive deleted] it. : ps. Dont tell me that freight bombing or burning is like subway writing : cuz it aint. : con.203 Graffiti has always been undergroud and thats where it should stay, yeah i know these people are too old to be out there or there are not any subway trains left well thats a damn shame,but i dont give a [expletive deleted] and when i am too old people wont give a fuck about me unless i am still out there doin illigal pieces. cojak
"Writers are the ones that go out there and destroy shit; that's what graffiti is."
Subject: Re: Graf selling out Date: 10 Nov 1995 08:43:10 -0500 From: sadkdeja@aol.com (SADK DEJA) Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti Wussup Kar?!? Legal walls are the shit! You can sit there and make your piece so tight and clean...They're not graffiti though. Writers are the ones that go out there and destroy shit; that's what graffiti is. Legals are just writers trying to do something that will force people to realize it is an art form, and it gives them a chance to flex their full skills...If you do legal walls only, you gets no props as a graffiti writer. You gotta go take a wall and make that shit the way you want it to look; not just do what people let you...that kills the whole idea... peace, *deja* sadk crew...801
"It's obvious graf is a part of popular culture ..."
Subject: Re: Graf selling out Date: 13 Nov 1995 09:08:16 -0800 From: bwebb@mizar.usc.edu (Brett) Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Newsgroups: alt.graffiti In article (480e64$pmv@news.orst.edu) "Alan C. Acock" (acock@ucs.orst.edu) writes: )you want to talk about graff selling out? )has anyone seen those rainbow"tag art" stickers )at k mart in the sticker machines. )equiped with wanna be peices and imitatinon krylon cans Oh shit...this is funny. I don't think that it has anything to do with graf selling out... more like america finally figuring out that it doesn't offend the masses, so they can use it to make a buck. It's obvious graf is a part of popular culture when you see a t-shirt for the "Graffiti" party at one of the frats here at USC. The shirt was complete with Krylon symbol and all. If that's not a complete acceptance of the culture in america, I don't know what is. --brett ps--don't sweat it, graffiti will never be legal. "Legal" walls still get censored when they deal with touchy issues.
"As long as you keep it illegal it'll be around. Legalize it, give kids space to express themselves and it'll just become another fine art. That'll kill the popularity of it real quick..."
Subject: Re: iLL FLiX Magazine Question 1 Date: 20 Nov 1995 09:10:33 -0800 From: bwebb@mizar.usc.edu (Brett) Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Newsgroups: alt.graffiti In article (48go6q$rv8@pipe1.nyc.pipeline.com) illflixm@nyc.pipeline.com (David E. Scfres) writes: )Once a week, we post a question here, all the answers appear in the )magazine, so please respond. )Here's this week's question: )Do you think graffiti will around much longer? As long as you keep it illegal it'll be around. Legalize it, give kids space to express themselves and it'll just become another fine art. That'll kill the popularity of it real quick, and all you'd have to show is big murals instead of tags covered walls. It won't happen, though--it would mean you'd lose too much cash, huh 'Ill Flix' mag? --brett
"Here in OZ the shit'll NEVER stop! the authorities try - BUT YOU CANT STOP THE BUMRUSH!! The unique aussie style cannot and willnot be crushed!"
Subject: Re: iLL FLiX Magazine Question 1 Date: 20 Nov 1995 23:55:58 GMT From: dendle@chem.chemistry.uq.edu.au (him) Organization: University of Queensland Newsgroups: alt.graffiti In article (48go6q$rv8@pipe1.nyc.pipeline.com), illflixm@nyc.pipeline.com (David E. Scfres) says: ) )Once a week, we post a question here, all the answers appear in the )magazine, so please respond. )Here's this week's question: ) )Do you think graffiti will around much longer? BOOM THC AUSTRALIA representing! Here in OZ the shit'll NEVER stop! the authorities try - BUT YOU CANT STOP THE BUMRUSH!! The unique aussie style cannot and willnot be crushed! ups tp SPEWD DEMO SPIRO BLEX PHYNE DISNE CHORE - THC VANDALZ! the hunted childs ,wild in 95
"i dont bomb or piece with any mother<deleted expletive> who i wouldnt fight for. thats graffiti rule #8"
Subject: Re: Startin a krew Date: 11 Jan 1996 15:49:16 -0500 From: pjuf@aol.com (PJUF) Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti abejsimpson said: Please explain. Are you implying you'd fight for the kids on this group?: no. my crew, whoever they may be, know that i would get there back in a raid, fight or whatever. i dont bomb or piece with any mother<expletive deleted> who i wouldnt fight for. thats graffiti rule #8 pjuf. con.203.
"you know-anyone can say they the roughest toughest king outta the projects......."
Subject: Re: Startin a krew Date: 13 Jan 1996 01:58:27 -0500 From: bcauze@aol.com (BCAUZE) Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti you know-anyone can say they the roughest toughest king outta the projects.......but it takes a man to admit they're a nerdy suburban whiteboy......i mean-as soon as u say-whiteboy and suburban-u get dissed......especially on here-even though i bet u most of the people on here are just as nerdy white and suburban as me.......i dont care WHERE your from-its HOW you come.....if your a toy-just say-hey i'm a toy,i admit it,but i'm learnin.....i mean-most of the ones dissin got no fame/respect/skills.......i seriously doubt any of u are from the gheto-if you are-your lyin.....if u actually live there-then i give u props cuz u must be sellin a hella lotta crack..... oshKOSH aka the nerdy ass whiteboy from the suburbs.........
"Come on kids, smile for the narcs."
Subject: Oh Captain, My Captain Date: 3 Jan 1996 16:51:38 -0500 From: pjuf@aol.com (PJUF) Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti Anyone know where the bitch himself, Captain Graffiti has been these days? Come on kids, smile for the narcs. pjuf. Captain, come say hi, the weather is good.
"all real graffiti writers start out tagging, it is ussually ugly at first but is an essential part of the evolution of a writers skills."
From: belize1@aol.com (BELIZE1) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti Subject: Re: Tagging is a form of illiteracy Date: 20 May 1996 09:52:03 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: (4npte3$o6l@newsbf02.news.aol.com) References: (4nl5l5$ip2@pegasus.odyssee.net) Reply-To: belize1@aol.com (BELIZE1) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com all real graffiti writers start out tagging, it is ussually ugly at first but is an essential part of the evolution of a writers skills. It is also an expression of the writers personal frustration with the "powers that be" in society and a bid for recognition in a world that often treats young people as insignificant or secound class citizens.
YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND GRAFFITI AND YOU NEVER WILL!!!!!!
From: bock@u.washington.edu ('Bock E.L.' S. Berke)
Newsgroups: alt.graffiti
Subject: Re: Tagging is a form of illiteracy
Date: 21 May 1996 04:26:43 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Message-ID: (4nrgm3$75m@nntp4.u.washington.edu)
References: (4mm3u2$q53@mars.efn.org) (Pine.BSD.3.91.960510001505.25667A-100000@astro.ocis.temple.edu) (4nl5l5$ip2@pegasus.odyssee.net)
NNTP-Posting-Host: saul4.u.washington.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: bock
ok <expletive deleted>....i'm sick and tired of fools telling me "tags
are stupid but that real graffiti stuff is real neato!" in a high and
mighty voice. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND GRAFFITI AND YOU NEVER WILL!!!!!!
that's all i have to say to you toys...
KWESTONE
Something illegal, something cool...
From: tyler or jon (revolt@execpc.com) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti Subject: Graffiti is outta hand wack... Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 15:36:04 -0500 Organization: revolutions Message-ID: (319E34B4.4F8C@execpc.com) Reply-To: revolt@execpc.com NNTP-Posting-Host: libby.execpc.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Why so much roll playing? Why so much biting?(only like 5% of anyone is doing anything new). I'm tired of seeing all the same shit. I honestly wouldn't even say that 40% of the writers today even love graffiti. People are doing it just to be doing something, to feel that their a part of something. Something illegal, something cool... Kids start doing graffiti for the same reasons that kids join gangs. OBIONE... has a bad atitude about life, and other living things.
"I LIED and just was sent home without a visit to jail"
From: "C. Carlson" (carlsonc@u.washington.edu) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti Subject: Re: Graffiti is outta hand wack... Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 21:51:17 -0700 Organization: University of Washington Message-ID: (Pine.A32.3.92a.960519211933.141186A-100000@homer17.u.washington.edu) References: (319E34B4.4F8C@execpc.com) NNTP-Posting-Host: homer17.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-User: carlsonc To: tyler or jon (revolt@execpc.com) In-Reply-To: (319E34B4.4F8C@execpc.com) same kinda shit going through my head lately. i got caught about 3 months ago and spouting a ton of shit to the cops about how it was my first time writing and i learned it from some friends i knew who did it. I LIED and just was sent home without a visit to jail (did get a court date though) but getting caught took it to a whole other level because no longer was it this fun, fame inducing hobby it was a true risk to express my self in a completely misunderstodd manner. the only people who seemed to understand graff were other writers but then again it seems even they are clueless. so basically i hadnt seriously bombed for a few months. went out the other night and got chased had to hide in some bushes for a few hours and in those 2 hours did a lot of force fed thinking. the next day i painted trains and 2 days later did a legal. so now i wonder WHAT THE FUCK AM I DOING! im 19 years old and risking a lot to go paint but honestly i feel that i wouldnt mind all that much getting caught hitting freights or doing a piece as i would for jsut fdoing some misunderstood bombing. i definately believe in making those who wish to escape the horrors of the city by becoming suburban elitist see graffitiand not have to ignore that problem known as the city. i also honestly feel bad when i see a store owner in the neighorbhood cleaning graffiti with a toothbrush. yet i dont give a shit if its a chain store like mcdonalds or something. i still bomb, love freights, and am completley grattified when i finish a legal piece. so im curious in how everyone else justifies their bombing. anyone anyone? cornfed conrad On Sat, 18 May 1996, tyler or jon wrote: ) Why so much roll playing? ) Why so much biting?(only like 5% of anyone is doing anything new). ) I'm tired of seeing all the same shit. ) ) I honestly wouldn't even say that 40% of the writers today even love ) graffiti. People are doing it just to be doing something, to feel that ) their a part of something. Something illegal, something cool... ) ) Kids start doing graffiti for the same reasons that kids join gangs. ) ) ) OBIONE... has a bad atitude about life, and other living things. ) )
"Locking people up for graff goes against the bill of rights and reminds me of the sedition act of 1798..."
From: belize1@aol.com (BELIZE1) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti Subject: Re: 5 Years for writing? Date: 20 May 1996 10:08:40 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: (4npud8$obf@newsbf02.news.aol.com) References: (318FD25E.148E@artsci.wustl.edu) Reply-To: belize1@aol.com (BELIZE1) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Dont forget DESA in New York who is also serving a multi year term for graffiti, he should also be set free. Locking people up for graff goes against the bill of rights and reminds me of the sedition act of 1798 thru which many other citizens were imprisoned for their opinions and writings. In New York it seems that Graffiti has become the scape goat for all urban woes and DESA the scape goat for all Writers. Governments such as the administration of Mayor Giulliani should concern themselves more with halting cuts to education and social programs than locking up teenagers for expression that might affect property values of their middle and upper class constituants ......................................BELIZE one A.F.D.......K.R.T. crews
...i personally would find and torture any toy that had the foolishness to hit my ride
From: belizeizm@aol.com (BELIZEIZM) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti Subject: Re: TACOBOY CONFESSES!!!! Date: 15 Aug 1996 04:49:58 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Reply-To: belizeizm@aol.com (BELIZEIZM) There are no real car rules in graffiti so if you want to hit them go ahead just remember that sooner or later some one will hit yours too, i personally would find and torture any toy that had the foolishness to hit my ride,most any one with balls would do the same. The graff comunity is very close knitt in NYC and if someone is lookin for a particular writer they will get found sooner or later....................BELIZE -Bomb the train cars not hoopties=
...i think you just don't know what graf art is all about.
From: mlg_fam@cam.org (CERN!) Newsgroups: alt.graffiti Subject: Re: why are graffiti artists so dumb? Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:29:49 -0500 In article <4ujpmt$eje@news3.digex.net>, ... wrote: > Hi > > This has always baffled me. Why is it when I talk to someone that > writes graffiti, I find them so lacking in education? They are just > plain dumb and can't express themselves very well. Maybe thats why > they write their names on the wall...thats about the limit of their > self expression. That and commiting crime. What do you all think? i think you just don't know what graf art is all about. you need to learn alote bout that culture.so when you'll be able to communicate your ideas bout graf cult. then come in here and trow all the shit that you want, but you'll understand who's educated... kik yo ass... RoCk*DsC-----peace to the other
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